Tricia Johnson  0:03  
This is Aspen Ideas to go from the Aspen Institute. I'm Tricia Johnson. When Tanya Selvaratnam met New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman in 2016, it seemed like the perfect match. They had similar backgrounds and hit it off right away. But behind closed doors shneiderman was controlling mean and manipulative. As a victim of intimate partner violence. Silva Ratnam says the entire system needs a shake up.

Tanya Selvaratnam  0:29  
I think there's a whole ecosystem overhaul that needs to happen to chip away at the conditioning that normalizes the cycle of violence, and that chips away at the patriarchy.

Tricia Johnson  0:40  
Today she talks about her new book, "Assume Nothing: A Story of Intimate Violence." Aspen Ideas to go brings you compelling conversations hosted by the Aspen Institute. Today's discussion is from the Alma and Joseph Gildenhorhornbook series.

Intimate partner violence is on the rise. Last year with the start of the Covid 19 pandemic, there was a 20% increase globally of domestic violence. In the US police departments in cities like San Antonio, Portland, Oregon and New York City have reported increases some as high as 22%. According to the American Journal of Emergency Medicine, Tanya Selvaratnam says victims aren't to blame society is laws need to adjust to reflect a victim centered approach. governments need to provide increased resources to organizations that shelter and council of victims and there should be more information and storytelling so others can spot stop and prevent intimate partner violence in their own lives, says Selvaratnam. She speaks with Carrie Mae Weems an artist who, through her work, has investigated family relationships, sexism, and the consequences of power, winds and sour rotten them have been friends for more than a decade. Here's their candid conversation.

Carrie Mae Weems  1:58  
I know you well, I know your background, but I was wondering if you might share a little bit of your background with our audience so that they understand more personally, where you come from who you are in the work that you've done.

Tanya Selvaratnam  2:12  
I was born in Sri Lanka, I am very proud to be Tamil, like our first female and black and Indian vice president Kamala Harris. I was raised in Long Beach, California, and have been on the East Coast for most of my life. And in New York City for the past, this would be my 26th year, my career started after college when I worked for Anna Deavere Smith, and I worked for her on Twilight Los Angeles, 1992. And then I was the youth coordinator for the women's conference in China for the NGO forum. So those were kind of the two defining moments in my life that set the trajectory for my entire career. And I feel like I've been winging it, but also just very grateful that the work I've done has brought me into collaborations with you with Hank Willis Thomas with mickalene Thomas with Katherine gun, and, and with so many wonderful organizations, you know, I make my living as a producer and a filmmaker, mostly, and the writing is, speaks to the introverted part of me, I love it. I think by nature, I'm a writer, but I'm good at producing. So I'm lucky that my producing brings me into these beautiful projects.

Carrie Mae Weems  3:37  
We're going to talk a little bit about the about the book, I do think that it's important, given your background where you come from the kind of work that you've been doing the work that you did for so many years around social justice. And of course, I remember the day that you met Eric Schneiderman. We were both at the National Democratic Convention in Philadelphia. Tell me about that first meeting.

Tanya Selvaratnam  4:02  
Well, it felt fortuitous at the time. In retrospect, it feels unfortunate, but I wasn't even planning to be at the convention center that night for the DNC, but a friend offered me a pass, I took it. I was in the box of Governor Ed Rendell, and I was seated on a stool and I was taking notes. I'm an interpret note taker. So I had my notebook and pen, and I could feel man, looking at me from the side. And so I looked to the side and we exchanged glances and I kept writing. And then he came over to me, and he said, your writing notes like that was surprising because most people were on their laptops or their phones. And he asked if I knew who he was, and I said no And he said, Where are you from? And I said, New York. And then he said, Well, I'm your lawyer. I'm smiling right now, because that was weird introduction. But it then became more about exchanging ideas. He was very interested in meditation and spirituality, which I am as well and progressive causes. We had both gone to Harvard, he for law school me for undergrad and grad. And we had both studied Chinese. And it felt like this nerdy flirtation that showed we had many overlapping interests. So it started out like a fairy tale. And I remember being in the car with you, when we were leaving the DNC to drive back to New York, and Eric had told me that he would call me and he called when you and I are together. And Carrie, I was wondering if you could describe what that moment felt like for you. When that call came?

Carrie Mae Weems  6:04  
Well, of course, you know, we had been talking, I think a bit about him when he called. And you were very excited. Wonder, of course, to know more about him wanted to see him again. And in the middle of discussing that. He called you. And we were both excited. Now, I think that this is really sort of an interesting thing that he called two things. One is that as you began dating more, as you began seeing one another as you entered the relationship, and we were working together, of course, we were working together on my project, grace notes, he began calling you more and more and more and more, and every few minutes, and constantly, and I thought, well, it doesn't have a job. perpetrators come in all stripes, all colors. perpetrators are are also stalkers. They are predators. By nature, they're looking for the weakest link in the chain. They're looking for a set of weaknesses, if they gravitate toward that, so I was wondering about this idea that they come in all stripes and shapes, right? And we're this this sort of abusive behavior come from, and why is it normalized, and then what needs to change?

Tanya Selvaratnam  7:28  
Well, perpetrators come in all stripes, and also a victim looks like all of us. And it was very important for me to share the micro details of what I experienced with Eric Schneiderman. So that I could help shift the perception of what a victim looks like that even fierce women get abused. For where this behavior comes from. It's the patriarchy. It's the conditioning of men to dominate, and women to be silent. And I remember vividly the conversations that you and I would have about this, when I was figuring out whether or not to come forward. And I asked you if I was doing the right thing. And you told me, unfortunately, yes. But we also talked about how it's a woman's place in this world to be silent. So I feel that by sharing our stories about these painful subjects, by doing the storytelling, that we take the stigma out of it, because stigma comes from secrecy. And it's, I think there's a whole ecosystem overhaul that needs to happen to chip away at the conditioning that normalize the cycle of violence, and that chips away at the patriarchy. It's about education. From the time we are young, because millions of people experience intimate partner violence before they turn 18. So I want high school students to read the book. And also the laws need to change, there needs to be more victim centered approach in the laws, there needs to be more restorative justice in tandem with law enforcement. And also there needs to be more government support, to provide resources to the organizations that provide shelter, legal services and mental health counseling to the communities that they are closest to.

Carrie Mae Weems  9:21  
I think these are really excellent points. At what moment, you know, can you can you mark a moment when actually you begin to began to understand that you were indeed involved in an abusive relationship? And what were some of the first clues that you were indeed involved in an abusive relationship? Because it seems to me that one of the things that has to happen is that women need to understand the signs and the markers of what abuse actually means in order to protect themselves at the onset of them. abusive affair?

Tanya Selvaratnam  10:02  
That is a great question. And it's largely the reason why I wrote the book to walk the reader through the stages that I went through to get entangled in an abusive relationship. Because when you're going through those stages, it's not so easy to recognize it because it's this drip, drip, drip. This escalation of manifestations, so I wasn't prepared for my path to intersect with an abuser. I've never been in an abusive relationship before. I wasn't prepared for the grooming, and the gaslighting and the manipulation, so that by the time I was entangled, it was very hard to see outside of it. abusers are very skilled at tapping into their victims weakness, and twisting it. So in my case, it was about the scars that run down my torso from cancer surgery. When he would first look at my scars during the fairytale stage, he would look at them as if they were a badge of courage. As time went by, he would look at my scars as if they were ugly, and he wanted me to get plastic surgery to remove them. He even had a plastic surgeon that he wanted me to see. Another example was my hair, which you know, today is straight, it's winter. But in the summertime, when it's humid, it is it gets big, which I love. But he always wanted me to straighten my hair or to wear it up. And then also the racism in the bedroom, the racism and the physical violence, which combined with the verbal abuse and the course of control, he broke me down. And I knew it was wrong along the way, I did tell a number of close friends, my trust, and also my therapist about his controlling behavior, and his drinking, which was escalating, especially after the election in 2016. And at the time, I thought that the abuse was specific to me, and that I had done something to spark it because he was so good at customizing the abuse to me, I was also duped, because so many people worshiped him. So many people had encouraged me to be in a relationship with him. And he was friends with his ex wife, who was also his advisor, and I consider his prime enabler, I'm sure that she has a story to tell to that you might never share. But nonetheless, her power was in twined with him. And also he was surrounded by meditators. I'm not gonna say their names, they are very prominent meditation teachers who work like a cover for him a shield. So they're, there's so many layers involved with how one gets entangled in an abusive relationship. One is the drip drip drip that I just described. Another are the enablers that are around them. And also that there isn't enough information and storytelling out there so that other people can spot stop and prevent intimate partner violence in their own lives. But the turning point for me because I wasn't telling people about the physical violence, didn't share it with me until the very end.

Yes. And it was a mutual friend of ours who's like my sister, who knew that something was wrong. She could tell there were a number of friends who for many months had felt that I was subdued that I wasn't myself. And his friend said, Hey, can you talk? And she started asking questions. And I told her that things were Rocky. And then she suddenly asked, Does he hit you? And those four words, blew my mind. And I wasn't going to lie to her. I said yes. And she, knowing that she was not equipped to then take me to where I needed to go said, Would you be willing to speak with a friend of mine? And that friend is a domestic violence expert. And I spoke with that I said yes. And I spoke with that friend A few days later. And she had me describe my experience from beginning to end. And she said, Tanya, what you experienced is classic domestic violence. And the scales fell off of my eyes, and I never looked back. And she also said, you're probably not the first person that he's done this to. And of course, as we know from the New Yorker investigation by Jane Mayer and Ronan Farrow, I indeed was not the first and I was part of a pattern.

Carrie Mae Weems  14:32  
You're coming forward when you did in the midst of the me to movement. So many of our quote, heroes were falling by the wayside. Of course, we made a project together that list any number of men, for the most part, who've been charged with sexual harassment and or abuse of women. And when we did our project several years ago, maybe we had a list of Have over 200 known men, public figures, actors, movie moguls. And on and on and on, that we began began to list. But I want to ask you a question, not because I believe that victims are the blame, but I'm always wondering about one's culpability. And what happens when one is abused? Yes, we understand that there is manipulation, distortion. How are victims culpable, and actually what happens to them? Or if you believe that they are?

Tanya Selvaratnam  15:39  
Well, I believe that society is culpable. The whole ecosystem is culpable. And one of the reasons I wrote the book is to give people kind of a guide for how to avoid an abusive relationship, to get out of an abusive relationship, to help a loved one get out of an abusive relationship, but also to provide a roadmap for coming forward and sharing stories about intimate violence. Because by sharing our stories, we can realize that we are one of many, and also begin to identify solutions. Now interviewers get criticized for asking victims why they stayed. But for myself, it was important for me to ask that question, so that I could understand how I got into the relationship in the first place. And also excavate the fractures within myself that I needed to heal. We are all the culmination of the experiences in our life. And at the point when I met Eric, even though I felt very secure in my work, and in my friendships, I was weakened with regard to romance is, as you know, Carrie, I come on the heels of a series of miscarriages, two types of cancer, surgery, and divorce. And even though I felt like I was ready for a relationship, the reality, of course, was that I was ripe for the breaking. And Eric just entered my life during the perfect storm,

Carrie Mae Weems  17:27  
You know, you're coming forward is so extraordinary. And one of the things that I that I'm impressed with by the book is its directness, its openness, its willing to share the sort of point by point by point, ways in which domestic abuse reveals itself reveals itself to you. And I think that this idea of storytelling is absolutely critical, and really important. And I understand based on this, actually, that, you know, since the publication of the book, several other women actually, who have been abused also by Eric Schneiderman have also come forward. Is that true?

Tanya Selvaratnam  18:06  
Yes. During the writing of the book, I had multiple women reach out to me, they have not come forward. So I write about them in vague terms, anonymously. I met with one of them. It just shows me what a serial predator he was. And then after the book came out, I got an A note that made my heart stop. And it was a woman who had dated him for decades ago. And she needed surgery for an injury he had caused. And that's when I went I won't I won't use expletives during this conversation. But I had a lot of expletives going through my head. And it was one of the few times that I felt I felt rage at him because I wasn't angry at Eric, for all the time that I was getting out of the relationship. I was really focused on myself and my recovery. But because I've come to this place where I'm my strongest self ever and feels liberated, because I wrote my way out of the darkness. I felt rage when I got that email now was about two weeks ago. And since receiving that note, I received yet another one last week from a woman who had dated him almost 15 years ago, who had also been abused by him. So if there are those four additional women, plus the women that were in the New Yorker story, and this spans 40 years at least, I just wonder how many more women he abused. And this is why I feel it is so important to speak out against predators. It's like you never know whose life you can be saving by speaking out. So for me, it was more about conscience than courage. I didn't feel like I had a choice.

Carrie Mae Weems  19:54  
I think it's a combination of both. I think that it was very courageous and bold. Hold, because you took a huge public stand against a very, very, very powerful political figure. And so I'm wondering also about the political, the political implications of your stepping forward based on who Eric Schneiderman was to the State of New York.

Tanya Selvaratnam  20:21  
There are many people who might have confided in and was seeking advice when I was deciding whether to come forward who tried to dissuade me from doing so, because they felt that Eric was doing important work, and that we needed him. But the chorus of people who were telling me that I knew what I had to do were much stronger and much more rational. So I listened to them. And also I had confidence that no matter what great work he was doing, as a man who championed women publicly, but abused them privately, we should not be the Attorney General of the state of New York. It was not my intention that he resign. It was my intention to protect other women. But of course, because of the airtight reporting of The New Yorker, within three hours, he did resign. And also the you know, these cults of personality that formed around powerful people, rich people, talented people who are abusers are damaging to the people who are in those cults and really damaging to society, the myth of indispensability of these people who are abusers, it's a false narrative. And we need to shift that narrative because of course, as happened in my situation, Eric Schneiderman resigned, he was replaced very quickly with Barbara Underwood. And then Letitia James became the first female and black Attorney General of New York State. So we did end up with a better advocate and a better champion, who, you know, walks the walk.

Carrie Mae Weems  21:54  
What an incredible story and an incredible journey. And you've talked a lot about, you know, him today and the way in which you wanted to support other women, which I think is so important. You've talked about sisterhood, you've talked about friendship. And you've also talked about the role of white women in relationship to to this moment, what's what do you think that role is? And you think that role is different for white women than it is for women of color?

Tanya Selvaratnam  22:24  
Yes, I think it's important to point out that, you know, white women like women of color, black women, brown men, it's not a monolith. But when you look at statistically, how white women vote in the elections, they're putting loyalty over conscience. And there's a line in Heidi srecs, extraordinary play what the constitution means to me, where she asked the question, when will white women stop betraying women? And I write about going to see that play in the book and what an impact it had on me. I think the call is for white women to examine how they contribute to the patriarchy. I mean, I do believe that white female patriarchy is a thing. And I feel that we need a war between feminists and patriarchs and those on the side of feminists are not only women, and those on the side of patriarchs are not only men, the goal is to get to a world that is safer and fairer for all people. So it's about finding ways that we can come together in this fight, that I think is essential. 

Carrie Mae Weems  23:45  
I was going to ask you something about whether or not it was painful to revisit all of this, but it's clear that it really isn't that you've really found your ground the ground beneath your feet. In order to push forward. I understand that the book has actually now been optioned.

Tanya Selvaratnam  24:06  
Yes, it was unexpected. But I was approached by Joanna Coles who knew that I was writing a book and she asked if she could read the manuscript. And she read it very quickly and said beautiful things to me about the book and that she wanted to develop it into a series. So now ABC signature Disney Television has optioned it. It is an active development. We're meeting with writers, and I'm excited about it. It's going to be a dramatization. It's not a docu series. I'm most grateful about it being turned into a series because it'll the message will just reach an exponentially larger audience.

Carrie Mae Weems  24:47  
Well, this is amazing. Thank you again, for the clarity, for the bravery for stepping out for doing what a lot of women don't do, Tanya because many of them remain silent. And now I'd like to go to some of the questions that are here and I think we've got just a few. Can you speak to the role of female, a female patriarchs and your reflections on women who may be enabling their behavior?

Tanya Selvaratnam  25:16  
Well, I feel the next wave of me too, is also about calling out the enablers, including the female patriarchs. I was made aware of many powerful women who behind the scenes were trying to discredit me, and the New Yorker, and I have found out some of their more names even recently, it is shocking. They claimed to be feminists publicly, they are very prominent. And I think it's because they didn't want to see one of their own taken down. They are transactional. As I said before, it's loyalty over conscience. And their power was intertwined with Eric's and he was their conduit to power as well. And I doubt that the current Attorney General of New York State is that same conduit for them. So what needs to happen is calling out the enablers because the perpetrators don't get away with it, usually without an enabler vouching for them.

Carrie Mae Weems  26:16  
Did you ever feel endangered? Were you ever afraid? Right in this relationship that you feel as though or even now do you? Do you have any sort of reservations? Do you feel comfortable and speaking out? Do you feel as though you might be in danger in any way, politically, or socially?

Tanya Selvaratnam  26:36  
I mean, I think we are all in danger all the time, because of the violence that's all around us. And the pandemic has only heightened the ways in which we are all vulnerable. But for me, I'm grateful for my friends and community that surrounds me with love and comfort. At the time that I was coming forward, yes, I was very afraid I was. My abuser was the top law enforcement officer in New York State. I had faith and trust in David Remnick, and Jane Mayer, and Ronan Farrow of The New Yorker, I knew that their reporting was solid. But I had no idea how the story would land. So I envisioned that if it didn't land well, that I might have to hide that I might have to leave the country. I did a security training a couple of months before the story came out. And also I read the gift of fear, which I feel is essential reading. And what's been really gratifying is that some people have described my book as a companion book to the gift of fear and the gift of fears by Gavin de Becker. A key takeaway for me is that there's good fear and bad fear. Good fear is when we rely on our intuition, and it helps us live our best lives. Bad fear is that which prevents us from living our best lives. So I've embraced good fear. By taking precautions for myself. I did not know what resources Eric might deploy, after the story came out, because he had many resources at his disposal. And also I have friends who have dated powerful men, and still live in mortal fear of them. It is not surprising to me, though, I think it's shocking to the general public, what people in positions of power will...

...stoop to when they are called out, especially when they have their enablers and infinite financial resources. So I didn't know what would happen to me. But thank goodness he resigned within three hours, because he was instantly stripped of that power of being the top law enforcement officer in New York State.

Carrie Mae Weems  28:51  
What do we do now about Cuomo? What are your thoughts around what's happening with the governor of New York?

Tanya Selvaratnam  29:00  
I believe in due process, I believe in establishing the veracity of the allegations and the credibility of the accusers. They're now six, I believe, and I believe in an independent investigation, which Attorney General Letitia James has ordered, and I think that we should wait for the results of that investigation before jumping to conclusions. What I do find notable about the allegations is that these are women who are expressing them independently of each other and they are expressing eerily similar patterns of inappropriate behavior, but it's very important to delineate between the types of harassment and violence. So what I experienced was intimate violence in a committed relationship and it was physical violence was being described in the Cuomo allegations are inappropriate, touching, groping, sexual harass, meant that kind of power over culture that men think they can get away with when they're in those positions such as Governor Cuomo. I think it is going to become increasingly distracting to have these allegations continue to, you know, drip, drip, drip. I've been disappointed in the way the media has been covering these stories, because I wish that they had done a thoroughly investigated multiple people, as a group coming forward against the governor so that he doesn't have the chance to keep digging in his heels. What I feel is equally important, is I really want to know what happened with the nursing home data and the situation there. So yeah, that's my position on Cuomo. I think that there are going to be more women who come forward. And I hope that the media does a responsible job of reporting it moving forward.

Carrie Mae Weems  30:57  
Thank you again for this amazing book and for the incredible clarity that you've brought to, to this issue. So important.

Tanya Selvaratnam  31:06  
Thank you, Carrie for being part of my story and part of my life.

Tricia Johnson  31:14  
Tanya Selvaratnam is a writer, Emmy-nominated producer, and activist. Her book Assume Nothing: A Story of Intimate Violence was released in February. She spoke with her friend Carrie Mae Weems, whose artwork can be seen in many public collections including at New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the Tate Modern in London. They spoke as part of the Joseph and Alma Gildenhorn book series at the Aspen Institute. Make sure to subscribe to Aspen Ideas to go wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow Aspen Ideas year round on social media at Aspen Ideas. Today's show was produced by Marci Krivonen. Our music is by wonderly I'm Tricia Johnson. Thanks for joining me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai